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his final general audience before his resignation takes effect tomorrow. tens of thousands of people gathered in st. peter's square, with what will be one of the last public appearances. once again, welcome, everyone, joining us on set. "new york" m john heilemann. and in nashville, pulitzer prize-winning historian and our resident theologian, jon meacham. jon, why don't we stick with these live pictures. and i'll start out with a

question to you because obviously there's a lot of symbolism here, a lot of ritual. but it's not something that the vatican has done in over 600 years. this was a surprise when he announced that he would be resigning. what do we know at this point as to why? >> i think we take him at his word in the sense that he's 85 years old. he does not feel that he has the energy or the -- really the ability anymore to carry forward the work of the church. i think there's always vatican intrigue. that's a redundant phrase. and i think we'll continue to hear things about leaked papers and potential complicit in different things. but my own sense from talking to friends who -- friends who know friends is that this was, in fact, a surprise. it is what it appears to be. and he's -- you know, this is a

man who -- i don't think this man has been forced to do anything in his whole life. you know, he's a very -- a formidable figure. one view of it's stubborn. the other view is unflinching. and so i don't think he's pushed around very much. >> right. which really doesn't match resigning from this position. in some ways there's a lot of questions in my mind as a catholic. especially since the last pope, one that we knew growing up, pope john paul ii, literally allowed the world to watch him die. that was part of the process of sharing life, willie. >> yeah. this pope says he's old and fragile, unable to travel, but you make a good point about the previous pope. john, we've heard many times now that the next pope, whoever that may be, will have to confront the sexual abuse scandal, puts

it mildly. that has consumed the roman catholic church for so long. what will that mean exactly? what will a pope do? a new pope in terms of confronting that? will he come out immediately in an opening address? will he purge some of the priests? what do you think that pope will do at least from a public relations point of view to change the perception? >> well, it's the perception and the reality. it's the most disturbing thing about any self-protecting institution. you see this as the catholic chump has, for decade upon decade now, put its own institutional survival and its own institutional dignity, really, ahead of the interests of the weakest people in its care, its children. i think many people who are admirers of benedict and were admirers of john paul ii accept the view that the church should have moved more aggressively.

you cannot simply, as the church has done in recent decades, move priests from diocese to diocese in the hopes that somehow or another the problem will go away. i think that the new pope would be very wise, particularly in the west, to speak out and argue that this is entirely a new day and that the church will become more christlike. >> you know, mika, i don't really know -- nobody knows why the pope is stepping down. we can take him at his word. unfortunately, taking the catholic church at its word over the past decade or so on a variety of scandals has not been what journalists should have done. i think some questions have to be asked here. he stepped down, the first pope to step down in centuries. and again, i love the church. i have a lot of connections to the church. and i just -- this is less about the church than it is about reporters and journalists who

are covering this story. i think far too many people are just saying oh, he's old. i think they need to dig into it a little bit more. >> you know, it's impossible, given the way the vatican runs. i will say there's a lot of reporters sent out there who are also practicing catholics. i'm a practicing catholic, and i just have a lot of questions. having said that, these are incredible images, incredible moment in history, in the history of the catholic church. we can take that moment for what it is. but we also should continue to ask questions because my hope for my church is that it becomes more transparent and more modern so that it embraces young people that join and keeps them safe. >> transparency would be a very good thing. >> it would be wonderful. >> obviously moving forward. >> i love being catholic, but i just feel i have to say that. >> that there hasn't been a lot of light in the hierarchy of this church for some time. let's move to politics.

some polls that have come out. and, of course, for those that followed polls and actually cared about results, it was probably the most accurate or one of the most accurate polls. there's some conservatives overnight in the twittersphere and online that have been pushing back against the results of this because, of course, they didn't report them as well as gallup or rasmussen did. >> when asked about their feelings. >> the numbers, though, are pretty daunting for my republican party. they've got a long way to go. >> an incredible op-ed, too, coming up that we'll talk about by sheila bair. when asked about their feelings about the gop, just 29% of people had a positive view. 46% were negative. a difference of 17 percentage points. by comparison, democrats enjoyed a net positive outlook. when it comes to handling key issues including entitlements, gun control, even taxes and the economy, democrats were seen as doing a better job. the only issues where the gop

holds the advantage in the survey are on reducing the deficit, controlling government spending, and defense. still, president obama has been seen -- has seen public support suffer. his disapproval has risen four points since november. and the number of people who think the country is headed in the wrong direction has increased to 59%. all the rancor over budget negotiations hasn't helped. 51% say they are less confident about the economy. just 16% say budget wrangling has made them more confident. just talking in my home to some young people just out of college last night, they don't -- they just don't want to hear the word "sequester" again. and still to this point, they don't really know what it means because they don't think it's going to mean anything. so they don't think it's worth, even in their mind, trying to figure it out. i don't like that attitude. having said that, i don't necessarily -- well, i kind of sympathize with it. >> yeah. as far as the poll goes, the president is not suffering. he's sitting at 50%, looking

very strong. the republican brand in the 20s. and you look at the specifics, item by item, over the budget or health care or improving the lives of middle-class voters. it is the president, the democrats who are winning on just about every front. the republicans' brand right now still in the tank, in the 20s. and only time will tell if they can turn things around. right now it's not looking good. mark, what are your overall impressions of the new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll? >> republicans are united around the country in not whaunting to new taxes. other than that, they're divided by chuck hagel and a legislative and pr strategy for dealing with the sequester, divided about immigration, divided to some extent about just the general posture towards the president. and i think you see in that poll, you know, you say who's the republican party unpopular with? to some extent obviously with

democrats. but the reason the number's down so low is a lot of republicans are unhappy with the party. some from the right and some from the left. i think right now the president and his team are firing on all cylinders on the pr war leading up to the sequester. and republicans have put themselves in a weakened position. a lot of long-term issues as well. >> when your brand is in the 20s, you're in harry truman and george w. bush territory. it's just not good. and you know, the president is winning the day on a lot of issues, especially when it comes to dealing with gun violence. if you look at the poll, overwhelmingly, americans think that this country needs stricter gun laws. that obviously is an offshoot of not only newtown but mass shootings over the past several years. 61% say they want gun laws to be tightened. 61%. only 4% want less strict gun laws. and 34% want them kept as they are right now.

democrats are also seen overwhelmingly as the party that can handle the issue of gun violence. and the poll reveals that despite controversial comments in a major ad and heavy media scrutiny in the wake of newtown, mika, the nra's public opinion is unchanged. it went down, and then it's come back up. 42% of the people have a positive view. 34% have a negative view. so really, willie geist, there's something there for everybody. >> there is. and it goes to something we've been saying for a long time, that wayne lapierre not only is out of the mainstream, but he's out of touch with his own membership, with the nra, which is to say when he says that nobody wants universal background checks and then you look at the numbers, and it's something like 90% of americans want them, there is a desire for some measures. not extreme to go take their guns away, but there is a desire in this country, not just from democrats and liberals, but from americans as we saw there to do

something about guns. >> the numbers have shifted dramatically, john heilemann. like they haven't shifted in recent history. and last night there was a special election. it was in a democratic seat to replace jesse jackson. a lot of people are scoffing about it. conservatives immediately because michael bloomberg went in. there was a candidate that was in a competitive race who was supported by the nra. bloomberg came in. and it changed everything overnight. >> he did. and he spent, i believe, $2 million on that race in a media market like chicago in a race at this level, $2 million is a lot of money. it's a lot of money anywhere. but coming in at the last minute and flood, saturate the airwaves with advertising in support of her and, you know, look. we talked about this a couple days before on the program. the mayor is a dangerous man in american politics right now for people who want to fight this battle. >> yeah, whatever you want to spend on trying to advocate for

guns, he will triple, double, quadruple, he will spend more. >> he's got a limitless bank account, and as i said the other day, a lot of really smart political advisors who know that they want him to have an impact. and he cares about this. he's ready to fight. he's ready to play. >> he's got time. >> he does. >> he's got time. he's got money. he's got focus. and jon meacham, that's dangerous. now, it may not affect a lot of republicans in safe republican seats in the southeast, but who is it going to affect? the 40 or so democratic house members who have reflectively voted the way the nra has ordered them to vote. and you have, of course, a democratic senate candidates in 2014 in red states that have reflectively voted the way the nra has wanted them to vote. all that changes now with michael bloomberg's money. >> i think money's the theme of the morning. i think because you have the bloomberg victory in illinois. you also have governor christie

taking the medicaid expansion, which is part of obamacare, which a lot of republican governors around the country have been struggling with. they want the money, but they have legislatures that have run against obamacare and all its forms. you wonder whether the christie decision and the shift in guns represents at least an opening for a kind of eisenhower republicanism. >> well, let's talk about that. obviously a reversal that could have implications on a future presidential bid. new jersey governor chris christie announced that his state will accept federal money from obamacare. governor chris christie becomes the eighth republican governor to opt into the medicaid expansion, joining notables such as new mexico's susana martinez, michigan's rick snider and rick scott of florida. >> and also john kasich. the guy is in really, really

good conservative company there. >> yeah. christie emphasized that he was making the decision despite his personal ideology. >> i am no fan of the affordable care act. i think it's wrong for new jersey. and i think it's wrong for america. i fought against it and believe in the long run it will not achieve what it promises. however, it is now the law of the land. and i will make all my judgments as governor based on what i believe is best for new jersey. >> that last minute invitation, that was coming from c-pac, they're burning it now. they are. >> are they really? what about rick scott? >> among the republican governors who still oppose adopting obamacare are bobby jindal of louisiana, scott walker of wisconsin, and rick perry of texas. meanwhile, one of the organizers of c-pac explained why governor christie was not invited to speak at the meeting. they spoke to christie's attack on republicans for delaying a vote on sandy relief saying in

part, quote, he made it very hard for republicans in the congress at a time when we were trying to deal with fiscal restraint this past year. we were disappointed with his take on the disaster relief bill. we're hoping that next year he'll give us a reason to invite him again. >> al cardenas is a friend of mine. >> he's a really great guy. >> he's been a friend of mine for a really long time, and it's his party. and it's cpac's party. yesterday i went on and on about why people didn't like chris christie. i've been talking about glenn beck versus chris christie. conservative websites immediately put up headlines that said, "scarborough says c-pac driven by hate" and whatever. >> okay. >> it's the people who are now trying to drive a guy with a 74% approval rating and one of the

most conservative records in recent history out of an organization that's supposed to attract conservatives. those people -- al, by the way, i think al's statement there is legitimate. if you don't want him there for that reason, that's fine because there are a lot of house republicans that believe that he sideswiped them when they needed his support. that's fine. if peter king would have done the same thing, i would have done the same thing as anybody's homes were ravaged by hurricanes in the district. my point is the much larger point that doesn't have to do with c-pac or al cardenas. it's that chris 'tis is being left out of a party with an approval rating in the 20s, and he's sitting, willie, with a 74% approval rating in the bluest of blue states, and he's doing it by breathing fire against public unions, by breathing fire against liberals, by breathing

fire against big spenders. he's balancing the budget, spending is down in real dollars. he's pro-life. he should be the conservative party's dream. and therein lies our problem. i mean, this -- i think this is a turning point in the republican party to show why we have a brand that puts us in the 20s. >> you just laid it out. it's not about policy. i mean, he cuts taxes. he's pro-life. he's taken on the unions. he's done everything conservatives would ask a governor to do. this is about hurt feelings. i mean, this is about him embracing, saying something nice about a president who helped him get through a very difficult time in a state that's about him calling out speaker boehner in the middle of the relief bill. it's about them feeling like he doesn't fall in line with where they want to be. well, that's not a great line to be in right now. he's staking out his own ground, and they don't like it. >> chris christie sitting at a 74% approval rating in new

jersey, and i thought it was so funny, somebody last night said chris christie doesn't have a future in the republican party. and i started laughing. no, this republican party, this part of the republican party that's lost five out of six presidential elections, this part of the republican party doesn't have a future in the republican party. chris christie's future, pretty damn bright. >> when this story broke and we heard that he wasn't invited to c-pac, we joked that it might have been about the hurricane sandy issue. we thought that would be unbelievably ridiculous, and here we are. so anyhow, last night "washington post" columnist charles krauthammer gave his take on christie's c-pac snub. >> what did he say? >> i think this is a vast overreaction. it's a mistake. he's a leading republican. obviously presidential timber. he's got the highest popularity of any governor, and he's in a blue state. look, i wasn't very happy with what he did with sandy.

i thought he deserved three months in quarantine. the three months is up. i let him out. we should have a wide tent. and if that's what it takes to win elections in the northeast and nationwide, let's go for it. >> can i just say -- i will say is every day. i love charles krauthammer. he's my favorite columnist. the guy is great. he is conservative. he's tough. i don't agree with him on every single point, but the man understands, mika, at the end of the day -- >> yeah. >> -- it's about winning. you move the conservative agenda forward by winning, not by yelling at yourself and stirring up resentment. it's about winning if you want to change the country. >> i'm absolutely baffled as to why he even jokingly said he needed a three-month quarantine after hurricane sandy devastated chris christie's state. it absolutely redesigned the shoreline, the map. >> can i help you?

can i help you? >> presidential action, right? >> can i help you here? >> yes, help me. >> there are different ways of doing things. >> maybe like george w. bush handled katrina? that's a different way. i mean, seriously. >> i'm trying to be serious, and you're not. >> i am, too. >> if you let me explain it, i'll be glad to explain it to you. >> okay. >> it's just like chuck hagel. i supported him. congratulations, mr. secretary. but there's no doubt that chuck hagel went out of his way to step on toes. there were always these guys that would go up, and they'd want to cut your bill. funding on your bill. and instead of coming up to you saying, you know what? i just can't support this, this, this or this. it just doesn't make sense. i think we're wasting money. okay, we'll move things around and make sure that it pays for itself. but some guys would always go to the floor, get in front of the microphone and pound and rail against it. and use it for their own advantage back in their home district. now, there's a better way for

chris christie to do what he did. his approval ratings are in the 70s. but if i'm a house republican, i'm going to go, you know, come on, buddy. let's talk about this behind closed doors. i'm just saying, i can understand why charles krauthammer said what he said. there are ways to do it. and chris has sharp elbows just like hagel had sharp elbows. that said, i agree with krauthammer. he needs to be at c-pac. >> and i think krauthammer is referring to a broader thing, which is not just the issue on the sandy relief but the way he conducted himself with president obama. again, not having president obama in the state because most republicans didn't object to that, but they objected to the way -- and i'm not saying their way. i'm saying this is their objection. he shouldn't have gone on the morning shows and talked as effusively about the president when the presidential election was so close in those last days. >> that is silly. >> that is how they feel. and i think that's what he's

saying about being in three-month quarantine. when he used that phrase "wide tent." and that goes to the heart of this. you cannot be a national governing party without being a big tent. you've got to be. you've got to let people in who don't toe every line and don't pass every litmus test. and the party right now is seeming like a litmus-test party. >> if i'm not mistaken, the republican party has not won a state north of the mason-dixon line in the northeast since 1988 other than maybe new hampshire in 2000, when george w. bush won new hampshire in 2000. did he win it in '04, too? maybe he just won it in 2000. chris christie gets us into the northeast. and that's what charles krauthammer's talking about. that big tent that you're talking about where we're not just a regional party in the deep south. so anyway, they've got a lot to worry about. but, you know, before you're so

shocked and stunned and deeply saddened about how stupid republicans are for how they responded to chris christie, let's imagine the opposite. let's imagine a democratic governor in a competitive state a week before meeting mitt romney outside of a plant that he opened up in, let's say, pennsylvania. actually, it's hard to find a good democratic governor in a swing state these days because of 2010. but let's reverse it. >> like hickenlooper in colorado. >> let's say hickenlooper in colorado goes up and he has a fawning press conference and he says, you know, all these people lost their jobs, and they've been out of work. and i'm just so grateful that they're back to work now. mitt romney, you have shown the kind of leadership that this country needs. and on and on and on. i'm just curious. how would the obama white house

have treated him? come on, let's not pretend he would have been persona non grata. he would have had the mark of cain put on him, and the guy would have been rolled by the white house for years. i'm sorry, is this not how washington works? >> you've got to put a republican in the white house. >> no, this is about in the closing weeks of a campaign, a governor from the opposite party embracing the -- i'm not knocking chris for doing it. i'm explaining, though, before we're all shocked and stunned that republicans didn't like what happened, democrats may have been even more vicious. >> just think about what happened, what happened earlier in 2012 when cory booker went on "meet the press" and criticized the obama campaign's attacks on mitt romney over bain. he said that they made him feel nauseous, and within 24 hours, he was releasing a hostage video apologizing profusely because the white house had come down on him like a ton of bricks.

this works both ways, and i agree with you. >> that's a great point. and democrats continued to hammer him for months and months and months. it was ugly for booker. >> and a politician who got off the reservation and got pulled back on the reservation quick. >> when it's time for national unity, people see it and they don't see a problem with it. >> i just wish they had seen it when cory booker had the courage to tell the truth. still ahead, "the washington post's" bob wood regard, mark warner and margaret carlson. up next, senate republicans offer a plan on the sequester that lets the president decide on the cuts. are they passing the buck or trying to find a solution? mike allen is here on the set for the "politico playbook." but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> good morning to you, mika. ugly travel morning in areas of the great lakes and especially up in new england. heavy rain is greeting you out the door this morning from all of southern new england down through new york city. remember on the map, the green is the rain. the white is the snow. so we do have some heavy, wet

snow especially the higher elevations. massachusetts, upstate new york and definitely through vermont and new hampshire. wind-driven rain, especially long island to new york city. again, the heaviest snows this morning, the catskills into the adirondacks and then i think we'll get nailed during the day especially north of the mass pike up into new hampshire around concord. and just outside of portland up into interior maine, also a lot of heavy, wet snow. thankfully, it's going to be all rain especially connecticut, new york city. temperatures will actually be pretty warm today, considering. and that won't last. the rest of the country, also dealing with snow this morning around chicago and michigan. chicago, you picked up about five inches. i'm sure there's some travel delays out there early this morning. i'll keep you posted on airport delays throughout "morning joe." the camera shaking in times square. heavy rain conditions for about two hours. you're watching "morning joe"

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30 past the hour. time now to take a look at the "morning papers." "the washington post." for the first time, president obama is considering measures that would provide direct assistance to opposition forces in syria. the aid could include body armor, armored vehicles and military training for rebels. but will not go as far as providing weapons to the opposition. opening up the business section, "the wall street journal," new jersey became the third state to legalize online gambling. did it yesterday. joining delaware and nevada. the bill was signed by governor chris christie, marks the largest expansion of legal gambling into the state of new jersey. >> dude, where can we go? can we -- >> it's online.

>> slots at dunkin' donuts? >> wherever you want. it's online. >> really? >> can i just say, i spent the weekend at revel in atlantic city. >> what's revel? >> it's a new casino. >> is there light rail to get there? >> it's heavy rail to get there. it's like a two-hour drive. atlantic city. it's a good time. >> did you gamble? >> what did you do? >> what do you think i did? >> he blew up the chicken man in philly. >> let's talk about your winnings. >> it was probably a break-even proposition at the end of six hours at a black jack table. >> how you support your family. >> a.c., highly underrated. >> we support the dogs. >> dog tracks. >> off-track betting. >> and the ponies. >> ponies are for her type. >> what's next? >> little snooty thoroughbred. ponies also. i mean, i don't want to bet on what i eat, okay? and my ikea meatballs, i couldn't -- >> what did you take last night? >> it's a conflict of interest. >> it's the munchkins talking.

>> nose munthose munchkins. i love munchkins. >> apparently people eat at ikea more than you think. we joked yesterday. we got all these e-mails. yeah, there's a whole food section. >> think about that. >> all the tables and things you can buy there. and there's meatballs and beverages and all kinds of stuff. >> horseballs. >> i'm sorry, horse what? >> horseballs. >> horseballs. >> yeah. >> oh, my god. >> i'm going to stay with munchkins, actually. >> could you move on? >> "the new york times," the supreme court voted down a challenge to an anti-terrorism law that allows the government to have surveillance on international phone calls and e-mails. the court decided by a 5-4 vote that the human rights advocates who argued against the law lacked the standing to sue. they did not rule directly, though on the constitutionality of listening to and reading absolutely everything that you

and your family does in the privacy of your own home. what else are we looking at, willie? from our parade of papers, "the los angeles times." for the first time since 1999, the music industry has reported an increase in global music sales. revenue for music sales hit $16.5 billion, that's a 3% increase from last year. adele deserves some credit for the gain. she had the top-selling album for the second year in a row. >> she's amazing. >> two straight years, one album. >> how old's lucy? >> lucy's 5. >> aww. >> has she gotten the whole one direction thing? >> oh, has she? >> isn't it crazy? >> has she? >> i'm telling you, seriously. so you've got a 4-year-old? >> 5 and 3. >> 5-year-old. kate is 9. and carly is 14. >> mm-hmm. >> i'm serious. >> it's unbelievable. >> these guys sell so much merchandise. >> she argues with my husband that they are as big as the beatles.

>> stop it, now. >> bigger than the jonas brothers. >> they are. >> they are bigger than the jonas brothers. >> yes. speaking of the beatles. >> mere mothey're moving up on backstreet boys. the backstreet boys were pretty big. >> one "d" is global. >> one "d" is global. look at the beatles. >> menudo. >> going crazy, throwing things like bras at them. i saw it myself. >> we have one "d" toothpaste at my house. >> we do, too. >> a one "d" sink. i mean, all of these things. it's unbelievable. one "d" meatballs. it's crazy. >> oh, man. >> why haven't they been on the show? >> one direction. >> that's what carly keeps asking me. will you please have one "d" on? please? >> what's the good of having the show? >> we were thinking about having them on, but i spoke with harry. he's a little short on the sequester stuff. >> oh, really? >> you know who's very good at

that is zain. >> i always took leo as more of a macroeconomist. >> you guys are scaring me. what's in "politico"? >> we could do this all day. >> kate has this, like, full-size cutout of liam. >> we have him, too. >> every time you turn around the corner. i always walk in and check the kids, make sure -- you know, wake up, i check, see how they're doing. i always walk in see how they're doing. in the window, there's a man, i'm, like, ah! every single time. >> at the very least, we could have the cutouts on the show. >> do you ever speak to zain? the cutout zain? do you ever speak to him? >> listen, it's liam, okay? not zain. it's liam. >> she likes liam. >> she does. it's kind of disturbing. >> well, now we have no time for "politico," but mike, it was good to see you. >> a cutout. >> one "p." >> we missed you on friday, man. i look forward to -- one "p." one "politico." i love it.

we miss you on friday. you can't take fridays off from us because we don't hear "happy friday." >> i was in atlantic city for the dressage. >> really? >> what? >> that's fantastic. no idea what you're talking about. >> there's fiber in atlantic city. >> there's fiber there. we miss you. and now here's willie geist at the one "p" table. he's going to be asking you some questions about "politico." >> just to make up for it, happy wednesday. >> boom. >> we'll take that. let's talk a little business. "politico" this morning, you guys are talking about senate republicans rolling out a new tactic to force the white house's hand dealing with the sequestration. the plan would cancel the existing across-the-board cuts set to go in two days and put the president in charge of coming up with the same $85 billion in savings himself no later than march 8th, which is a week from friday. congress could overturn the president's plan but only with a two-thirds majority in both the house and the senate to prevail over a presidential veto.

explain it a little bit. >> i think we need liam to explain it to us. but what it shows is two things. one is that congress is just desperate to have this cut passed from them. it used to be congress is very jealous of the power of the purse. here they're happy to give it up. second, the other thing, republicans have no plan. they know that they're getting hammered. every focus group they get, every poll they get, shows that they're taking the blame. and yet they have this plan which is backed by senate leadership. conservative senators have another plan. none of them have enough votes. you can go on with your life. the cuts are going to happen friday. but this shows that they know that they are going to get in trouble. >> hammered. yeah. >> so what happens, mike? so the cuts go into effect friday. let's assume they do for now. how does this get resolved, or does it get resolved next week? the week after? the month after? >> probably in that month. coming up march 27th when a spending bill, that's like the window to fix it. you talk to these republicans, they want to fight.

they don't want to make a deal now. leaders say they have no way of selling a deal to their guys now. but in that month of march when people start to feel it, whether it's the lines for travel or whether they're turning out the lights on the statue of liberty or whatever it done, that's when there's going to be some pressure to fix it. >> but is there a reason to believe that they will fix it? i mean, they couldn't fix it now. they set this deadline and they can't do it now. so why will they be able to fix it a month from now? >> right now it's in the sort of talking stage. and when people start to feel it, when they can see it, when washington is not working, then there's pressure. and there will also be pressure from the white house to deal. you talk to the white house, they're concerned about the effect on consumer confidence. what this could do for the economy. and in most of america, there's one politician people know. and that's barack obama. and we've talked about this before. when washington is not working in a very visible, tangible way, that's not good for obama. >> all right. >> all right. >> mike allen with one "p."

the front man for one "p," we should say. good to see you. >> all right, buddy. thank you so much. coming up, a little shoving match escalates into an all-out brawl that spilled into the stands in another nba game last night. >> go on strike, will you? >> next in sports. [ female announcer ] it balances you... it fills you with energy... and it gives you what you are looking for to live a more natural life. in a convenient two bar pack. this is nature valley. nature at its most delicious.

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welcome back. time for sports. a couple quick headlines. number one indiana loses last night at minnesota, reinforcing this is going to be a great tournament, and lebron james had 40 points and 15 as in a double-overtime win over sacramento. in an uglier nba game last night, got a little out of hand, hibbert and lee mixing it up under the basket. lee shoves hibbert. hibbert shoves lee. then everybody starts shoving everybody else. 185-pound stephen curry of the warriors gets the worst of it. he's thrown aside by the hibbert. hibbert said after the game he didn't even feel curry coming after him. the fight spilled into the front row. that's trouble. hibbert ejected. he'll face suspension from the

league. the pacers, in case you care, won the game, 108-97. also we want to mention we got the barnicle boys. >> oh, good god. trashed. what happened? >> nick and colin barnicle just released overnight from prison. >> do they need bail? thank god. >> don't blame them for their father because they're very good boys. >> well, you haven't spent a lot of time around them. they're talented boys. >> seriously? have you looked at them? i feel like chaos is about to break out. >> okay, okay. >> they have their first 30 for 30 film documentary done on the iconic honus wagner baseball card, it's on espn. it's on the grantland site. it's up at 11:00 a.m. site. >> grantland.com. explain why that card's so significant. >> because it's worth about $2.5 million, and a couple of people have been indicted for trying to make a fraudulent card, trimming the existing card. it's quite a story about the

card and the trail of the card, the money trail. >> wow. >> and it means, obviously, that they have this on now. it means their hands are out of my pockets. >> that's right. >> that's what this is all about. >> "30 for 30," again. >> grantland.com this morning at 11:00, the barnicle boys. >> good boys. >> they made it out of the house by 30. >> the amazing barnicle boys. >> they are very talented filmmakers. check that out. republican senator pat toomey will join us. also, tom brokaw right here on the set. and up next, "bloomberg's" margaret carlson joins us for "mika's must-read opinion pages." our watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. mine was earned in djibouti, africa, 2004.

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49 past the hour.

ooh, kind of a hazy, rainy day in washington. >> you see that? you were talking about the cover of "the washington post." show that cool picture. >> it is a cool picture. this is taken from a car window. you got it, barnicle? just taken from inside the car. and it kind of looks like an impressionist painting. and here with us now from washington -- >> gorgeous picture. >> -- we have a columnist for "bloomberg view," margaret carlson. she joins us from washington for the "must-read opinion pages." we start with sheila bair. she writes about income unequality in "the new york times," and it's entitled "grand old parity." "i am a capitalist and a lifelong republican. i believe that in a meritocracy, some level of income inequality is both inevitable and desirable. but i fear that government actions, not merit, have fueled these extremes in income distribution through taxpayer

bailouts, central bank engineered financial asset bubbles and unjustified tax breaks that favor the rich. this is not a situation that any freethinking republican should accept. >> amen. >> it cuts against everything our country and my party stand for. government's role should not be to rig the game in favor of the haves but to make sure that the have-nots are given a fair shot. having worked for senate republicans in the 1980s, i remember a time when republicans stood up to special interests and purged tax code of preferences for investment income and other special breaks. they managed to survive re-election by showing leadership, taking principles positions and defending them vigorously. it's time for the grand old party to return to those roots." >> it's a fantastic op-ed by sheila. i couldn't agree more. the big shock when i was looking through my cross-tabs the morning after my first election was the fact that i did best

among people making from, like, $30,000 to $50,000. >> yeah. >> in the republican primary. i owned that group. and owned them pretty much in the general election whereas people making more money voted against my opponent. that was the big revelation, margaret carlson, with ronald reagan. ronald reagan got reagan democrats, got working-class people to believe that he was fighting for them. but now with carried interest, with warren buffett paying lower tax rate than his secretary, with all of these things going on that sheila talks about, suddenly the republican party stops being the populist party. they need to listen to her, don't they? >> they sure do. you know, the thing about it, there are two women who are making this point. sheila bair and senator elizabeth warren about how the playing field is so tilted in favor of investment income and away from the person who's, you know, ironing your shirts and,

you know, mowing the lawn. everything goes in their favor. and the idea that we still have carried interest after we've been talking about it as one of these terrible loopholes for years, that you come in in the morning. and if you're investing capital, you turn on the light. you sit down at your desk. and you're taxed at a rate that's half of what i pay or, i don't know, joe, but maybe what you pay. >> oh, i pay 12%. >> such a target. >> i am a target. >> things have gotten in this crisis. look who's recovered. the people who caused the crisis have recovered. and they watered down dodd-frank before it was out of the crib. there is just so much, you know, influence given to that sector of the economy. and so many of the people in government, not just on capitol hill, but in the white house are s sympathetic to the banks and

investment. >> jon meacham, a republican that went out talking about breaking up the banks, ending too big to fail, ending carried interest, ending a tax code that makes billionaires pay half what their secretaries pay, i think that republican would catch fire and would start being able to cobble together a reagan-type coalition. >> i think so. and what's so interesting about the bair op-ed, that's essentially a jacksonnian op-ed, the interests of the few and the many. what i think is so remarkable about the last five years is even after the crash, the real weakness of economic populism in the country. we continue to be driven more by cultural populism even when we make the intellectual arguments that bair is making and that margaret alludes to. >> i think this is why some would say that the republicans are failing in this sequestration battle because who would be against closing loopholes when you think about

the way it's all set up? i don't get it. >> let's see what happens. >> i don't get it. >> i don't think this is as clean cut as the others. i don't think republicans are going to take a pounding, but we'll see. >> jon meacham, thanks so much. >> thank you all. >> come to a city that has sunlight. he's in nome, alaska. it gets light about 4:00 in the afternoon. margaret, stay with us, if you will. coming up on tomorrow's show, this is going to be huge. i'm not going to be able to sleep, i'm so excited. >> we have melody barnes, also "mad money's" jim cramer. and in just a few minutes, chuck todd will help break down the new nbc/"wall street journal" polls. we'll be right back.

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this is just huge. willie, it's going to be -- man. >> this is coming up next. >> i was thinking next week. no, it's next. on the other side of this 20-second break, we're going to have "the washington post's" bob woodward. he's going to be with us. now, you know, it's sort of the yin and the yang, you know. >> is he okay? >> donny deutsch is passed out right now. oh. there he is. that's the worst acting job i have seen. >> not your best work, donny. [ male announcer ] this is bob,

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i've got to take a drink of water here, senator. so i'm going to take a little sip. i'm going to give you some tv advice, okay? >> okay. >> i've been in this business for 36 years, so i know a little bit about it. whenever you're on television, particularly live television where you can't edit it and do it again, you've got to tell the folks everything, everything. so when you were giving that speech, and i understand you had given a speech in spanish before that, so you obviously were

bloviating and you were parched. when you want to take a drink of water, you just tell the folks, excuse me, you take your sip, you smile again, and you go, oh, that was good. now you go back. >> that's good advice. i don't anticipate doing that again in the future, but if i get a chance, that's good advice and i'll take it. >> welcome back to "morning joe." stop it with the bubbles. >> what are you doing, joe? tell the people. >> i'm blowing bubbles to make my mind get distracted from what i just saw. >> john heilemann. that will distract you. >> look at all those bubbles. wow. >> you wouldn't believe what goes on off camera when other people are talking with heilmann. it's unbelievable. >> why are you always picking on him? >> i do. he has refinement issues, and we're going to work on it. >> he's an artist, man. he's an artist.

>> yes, he is. that is to say the least. along with margaret carlson in washington. >> we love her. >> and pulitzer prize-winning author of "the price of politics," bob woodward here on set. it's time, right, donny? >> yes, ma'am. >> the chairman of deutsche incorporated, donny deutsch. >> i actually think bill o'reilly should have a podcast every day to give us those inspiring tips on life, education, wisdom. >> that would be fantastic. i understand your daughter also a big one direction fan. >> i was watching the show earlier in the morning. i think we have to give into the fact that the beatles are challenged at this point. >> oh, just stop it. just stop it. >> ooh. >> these guys don't write their own music. come on. let's just stop it. one or two albums. >> sherman writes some of their music. >> they're going to be fat and bald in a year and a half. >> stop it. they're sweet boys. dancing. >> bob, you kind of got in the middle. here i am, spending my weekend with the kids listening to these

one direction albums. you're like in this slugfest. it's like ali/frazier 4, man, with the white house. you guys going back and forth. they did not take kindly to the fact that the president said hey, this wasn't my idea. and you, of course, you know, found evidence that it was. what's going on with the white house? >> which the white house has conceded, that it was the president's idea, the sequester. you mention that word and people flee. and i think people's heads are about to explode about all of this, you know, what the hell is going on here. and it's very confusing. i'm not sure the white house understands exactly what happened in all of these negotiations at the end of 2011 with the sequester and the super committee and god knows what. because they were really on the

sidelines. but i think it's possible to take one example here where president obama came out and acknowledged that we are not sending the aircraft carrier truman to the persian gulf because of this budget agreement. >> right. >> joe, i mean, this will resonate with you, i think. can you imagine ronald reagan sitting there and saying oh, by the way, i can't do this because of some budget document or george w. bush saying, you know, i'm not going to invade iraq because i can't get the aircraft carriers i need or even bill clinton saying, you know, i'm not going to attack saddam hussein's intelligence headquarters, as he did when clinton was president because of some budget document? under the constitution, the president is commander in chief and employs the force. and so we now have the president going out because of this piece

of paper and this agreement, i can't do what i need to do to protect the country. that's a kind of madness that i haven't seen in a long time. >> it is a madness. you also say here, you say the president's call for a balanced approach is reasonable. and i think we probably -- a lot of us would agree on the president's reasonable approach. and he makes a strong case of those at the top income brackets could and should pay more. but that was not the deal he made. you talk about the president moving the goalposts. what do you mean by that? >> well, the deal in the sequester was that it was only going to be spending cuts. and they reached that deal. in my book, i go through it step by step because the president did not want to have a second step debt ceiling deal during his re-election campaign.

understandably. he was absolutely desperate to get something. so he got his benefit. and now he wants to come back and say, wait a minute. let's put some taxes in here, which he had agreed in the sequester not to do. now, the white house has a point that there was always discussion about some more tax increases. but the president got a lot of tax increases a month ago. and quite frankly, i think a deal could be made here, but these people have to sit down. >> we're not talking about an increase in rates, per se. >> exactly. >> let's look at these new nbc news/"wall street journal" polls. it has more tough numbers for the republican party. when asked about their feelings about the gop, just 29% of people had a positive view. 46% were negative.

a difference of 17 percentage points. by comparison, democrats enjoyed a net positive outlook, 41% positive over 36% negative. when it comes to handling key issues including entitlements, gun control, even taxes and the economy, democrats were seen as doing a better job. the only issues where the gop holds the advantage in the survey are on reducing the deficit. controlling government spending and defense. still president obama has seen his public support suffer. his disapproval has risen four points since november. and the number of people who think the country is headed in the wrong direction has increased to 59%. all the rancor over budget negotiations hasn't helped. 51% say they are less confident about the economy. just 16% say budget wrangling has made them more confident. >> okay. so donny deutsch, you do brands all the time. and let's say you take off your cop as left-wing extremist.

>> exactly. >> zealot. >> zealot extremist and put on your cap as advertising guru, marketing guru. we've talked about this for some time. the republican party's brand is in the 20s. that's george w. bush territory. that's harry truman territory before he left office. what do they do? and don't say change. >> i'll tell you exactly what i'd do. i'd search for a spokesperson -- oh, wait, chris christie. and i see somebody -- you pointed out earlier in the show -- that has a 70 something approval rating. being rejected by a group that has a 20 something approval rating, and i say the road map is already there. the holy cows that i have to bow to the nra, that i have to go to c-pac, you don't anymore. and we are seeing it in action now. we are seeing what the republican party will look like.

what it looks like in a blue state. and so the answer is already there. you don't have to test it. you see what happens when somebody breaks rank, embraces the president, is basically still, to your point earlier, is a conservative with a capital "c." >> goes after the public unions. tells them what they're going to have to do to save the retirement programs. he actually has a budget that spends less money in actual dollars this year than the 2008 budget. man, what we would do in washington, d.c., to have that. he is the only pro-life governor of the state of new jersey since roe v. wade was passed. he's got a gender gap with women. that is one of his biggest problems. he's plus 20. let me say that again. chris christie is plus 20 with women in a liberal blue state that hasn't voted for a republican presidential

candidate since george h.w. bush ran the first time in 1988. they are shunning him because some people are upset what he said about house republicans who, if you look, this is feelings towards the republican party. actually, the house republican numbers are even more upside down than that. >> so the answer is you actually snub what was institutionally unviable to do. he's giving you the road map of what to do. and i think this week is the perfect example with this whole c-pac thing. oh, you have to go to c-pac. no, i don't. and that's the answer. it's a memetaphor. it's a small slice of what republicans need to do, not the road traveled. you have the road map. you have the spokesperson. that's the answer. >> what are the odds at the c-pac convention that the national republican party will follow the logic train, the comeback trail that they ought to follow in the minds, i think,

of many people, democrat and republican. and it is you tie income inequality, which is stretched out over the last 15 to 20 years to tax reform and talk about that rather than these crazy, off-the-charts stuff that they get into. >> you talk about getting people back to work, margaret carlson, at the end of the day -- and i say it all the time -- there was a shopkeeper's daughter in england that figured out how to turn the british economy around and connect the dots between conservatism to the needs of working-class brits. and she got elected and started a revolution because of it. >> yeah. in margaret thatcher and ronald reagan both had that gift of populism. that made them identify with a class that they weren't in, at least they weren't in it anymore by the time they came to office. i mean, what you need to know about c-pac is that sarah palin is keynoting there. >> that's really all you need to know.

that's it. >> chris christie won't be there at all. you'd think they'd want to embrace chris. when i see the 20 points with women, women, if you aren't inflicting an ultrasound probe on them, they're pragmatists. christie's good for new jersey, he's good for women, and he's found a way to weave programs that win in new jersey, and the republican party doesn't want to embrace that? in fact, they want to shun him? it's just preposterous. >> a pro-life governor in the state of new jersey is plus 20 with women. john heilemann. >> well, you know, i slightly reject -- i mean, look, christie's doing a great job and he's obviously really popular in new jersey, and c-pac should have him come speak, but the republican party not has just a brand issue or they need a new spokesman. the "wall street journal" poll shows that on almost every issue right now on policy, the country is more with the democrats than

it is with republicans. republicans are out of steph on almost every issue with the majority of opinion. and this is not just on these crazy social issues. it's on a lot of these core economic issues. there was a poll yesterday that pew and "usa today" put out on the central issue that we're talking about right now in terms of the sequester. 76% of the people in this poll said that they think the tax increases should be -- should not be off the table. only 19% said you should not have any discussion of revenues. >> but john, you know as well as i do, the medium is the message. i mean, if dennis kucinich were carrying barack obama's message, the numbers may be different. >> i think it's -- absolutely there's an interplay between image and branding. >> i'll put it another way. >> and substance, but it's foolish to overlook the substance right now. >> john, it's very hard for people, not issues. the whole point if they were voting on issues -- >> we're not talking about a presidential election. we're talking about what the party needs to do to redefine

itself, which is it has to change on substance. >> no, it has to have the right human beings delivering the message. the point is you don't. the point is you don't. the point is, if you have the right human beings -- >> i just don't think -- i think it's a foolish binary here. politics is an interplay between personalities, style and actual substance. people do have views about what the actual public policies are that these parties represent. in this case, there are many issues on which the democrats are in the better place right now than the republican party is. it's just a fact. >> they do overlap, those three elements in politics, bob woodward. but just look at what's happening in virginia right now. you have a sitting republican governor who shares probably 99% of the views of the attorney general that wants to replace him. and the attorney general goes out of his way to offend, wherever he can, cuchinelli, is

pragmatic when it comes to his focus. he's focused on jobs. we always say bob's for jobs. you look what's happened in that state over the past four years, and he proved he got things done. he wasn't an ideologue. that's, i think, what the republican party's missing. but you've been around d.c. long enough, you tell us. what's going on here? >> well, first of all, there's a quality that overshadows all of this and really is roman numeral one, and that is leadership. somebody stepping up and saying, this is what we've got to do. in the office of the presidency, there's something called moral authority. where the leader gets up and says, we're doing this. we are in the moment of these budget shenanigans now, which are just awful. and you pick into them. you know, no one side is really good on it. but how do you fix it?

and leaders have to fix things. and the president -- and i suspect even before we reach friday -- is going to call all the congressional leadership down to the white house. there's going to be some meeting to try to fix this. but, you know, we could sit around for an hour. i've said this before. and come up with a solution to the budget problems. then once you set that aside, we can go to the issues that you have been talking about like gun control, 92% of the people supporting some sort of background checks. that's obama's position. he could lead on that. republicans are going to get behind that. the immigration issues and so forth. you know, in a way, having written two becomes about obama, i'm not sure he understands the power he has as president and the nature of the necessity of asserting moral authority.

>> well, i was going to ask you, you say the president has moral authority. do you believe, bob woodward, the president has shown moral authority in these budget talks? >> not enough. and everyone on the left, on the right, everyone, you know, the editorial page of my newspaper, rightly said, why isn't he leading on some sort of entitlement reform? he could do that. he's talked about it. but, you know, where's the action? where are the numbers? where is the let's get it done? >> all right. "the washington post's" bob woodward, thank you. margaret carlson, thank you as well. still ahead, senators mark warner and pat toomey will be with us. and up next, tom brokaw joins the set along with chuck todd from washington. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. many cereals say they're good for your heart,

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you name it...i've hooked it. but there's one... one that's always eluded me. thought i had it in the blizzard of '93. ha! never even came close. sometimes, i actually think it's mocking me. [ engine revs ] what?! quattro!!!!! ♪

♪

when you. >> smile. >> is it. >> hard. >> to tell. >> you don't. >> know. >> you're beautiful. >> all right. i don't know who -- >> it's like albert brooks in "broadcast news." i say it here, it comes out there. >> it's unbelievable! >> this thing is brilliant. if you like one "d" and "downton abbey." >> it's fantastic. here with us now, nbc news' tom brokaw. and from washington, nbc news chief white house correspondent and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. >> break it down for us. what's the headline? >> i think country thinks sequester is bad, country sour on washington. obama honeymoon starting to come to an end. but the republican brand is still in freefall. you throw is all together, and i

think the big soup out of this really is the public's sort of lost patience with washington. and the fact that they believe the washington battles over the budget make them less confident about the economic recovery. translation, consumer confidence. and so this is how the manufactured crisis in washington actually now is going to take down the economy because you have people watching this mess, saying, you know what? i'm not sure i'm going to buy a house. do this. invest. you know. and this is -- this is the real -- this is the real issue that washington has created. >> so chuck, if you dig into the numbers beyond sequestration, you have a republican who's actually sitting at 50%. honeymoon may be over. it's still a nice afterglow. 50% five years in. >> that's right. >> that's pretty damn good. republicans, in the 20s. their brand is still tattered. and you go item by item, issue by issue -- >> oh, they're getting killed.

>> -- on almost every important issue, except, of course, the issues that matter the most to me, that matter most to 2% of americans, the debt, democrats are winning. and they're winning by a long shot on who cares more about the middle class, on who can turn the economy around, who cares more about medicare, health care, gun violence, social security, taxes. they are sweeping the republicans right now. >> so how could that mean the president's honeymoon is over? >> and that -- sorry, go ahead. >> how could that mean that obama's honeymoon looks like it's over when the democrats are taking over on key issues and potentially even losing the sequester debate? >> what you see here, mika, though is that the president's numbers have fallen a little bit. his job approval on the economy is upside down again. it's back to where it was six months ago. his job approval rating, back to where it was six months ago. right direction, wrong track on the country, back to where it was six months ago. so when you look at a question like we asked, you know, is he

trying to unify the country, or does he have a partisan approach? it's basically split, slightly more people see it as unifying. so all of his numbers, if you took them in isolation, mika, they're okay. they're not great anymore. they're okay. then you stand them up next to the republicans, and he looks like a tall guy at a short guy convention. >> exactly. >> because republicans have completely -- they're going down. they're sinking even further. and i think that that was the question a lot of us had. was it possible to sink further? on these issue-by-issue things, what's interesting here is that it's the republicans sinking in the idea with voters, even where democrats have the lead on this, it's republicans going down. so that's why i believe the analysis i'm using there is correct. >> tom brokaw, another analogy, seriously at this point, if those numbers are true about the

democrat side of things and the president's -- people's view on the president's leadership in this latest sequester debate, it would be almost as if the republicans are shooting themselves in the foot with a high-capacity semiautomatic weapon. i mean, it's ridiculous. >> with all due respect, that's a big duh. >> yeah. >> this is what we've been witness to. >> how could they still be doing this? >> you've got to ask them. i'm not sure. i am hearing from washington that within the ranks of the republican party, there are efforts to change the tone and change the specifics of the debate so far. but that's from the bottom up. and the tea party still has a big hold on big elements of the party at the same time. across the board, domestically, internationally, national security issues. the republicans look as if they're in a constantly sour mood. it's all very negative whenever you hear from them. there's nothing positive that comes out of it. and then they talk about the american people sent us here.

well, that's an indication of what the american people think across the board, by the way. it's not just democrats who feel that out there. main street republicans are saying we've given up on washington. they've seen this show before, by the way. and there is nothing else in america that operates quite this way when you have the consequences of the sequester going forward and the inability of the president of the united states and the congress of the united states to find some way out of this except at the 11th hour plus. i think bob woodward was right when he said that the president's got to show real leadership here. he plainly is more comfortable campaigning than he is governing, and that's why we're seeing him on the road so much. >> chuck, we just showed numbers on the screen. let's talk about them quickly. on the issue of reasonable, rational gun regulation, 61% of americans want gun laws to be more strict. only 4% less strict, keep the same, 34%.

for those that are thinking about blocking universal background checks, for those who are thinking -- democrats and republicans -- thinking about following wayne lapierre off the cliff on legislation, that's taking care of gun trafficking, these polls show that not only, as you take the snapshot right now, are things looking bad for the extreme faction of the nra, but things seem to be getting worse that the bully pulpit has made a difference. newtown has made a difference. chicago has made a difference. unrelenting stories about gun violence across america has made a difference. you're really starting to see it sink into the public consciousness. >> the bully pulpit works. the most important number on that number that you just put up, the strict number is not the 61. it's what it went up from. it is now -- it went up five

points from what we had it last month. if you look all throughout this poll, joe, one of the more fascinating things -- and by the way, it's a reminder that the president has a bully pulpit. and when he chooses to use it, he can move an issue, an issue frankly that there was a lot of skeptics out there that like myself, you wonder, could you move the populous on this issue? he has done it. he has spent a lot of political capital doing it. you see the numbers. for instance, we asked other things like we asked people to give us a raw answer. we call them an open-ended poll question. what are the one or two things you'd like to see republicans compromise with on the president? the number two issue was gun control and background checks. number one had to do with compromising on taxes in order to deal with the deficit. but the fact that the gun issue has moved up into top of mind on voters, that's the president, that's the bully pulpit.

>> tom, i want to pick up a point you were making as far as the persona of the party. if you look at the faces we see of the republican party, the lindsey grahams, the john mccains, the john boehners, they're angry old men. they're not appealing as human beings. forget issuewise. and clearly the democrats have barack obama. and i want to come back to a debate that we were having. you've covered president after president. it doesn't matter how they shift on the issues until they have the right delivery system, the right human beings who are not tone deaf to an attitude that this country wants. they're never going to get back. ronald reagan got that. to your point earlier, john connelley didn't get that, joe. we said this off the air. that's why he was not elected president. i think it's all moot until they change literally and figuratively the faces of the party. >> well, it can't be just the cosmetics, however. >> not cosmetics, but humanity. >> a combination of the two, it's about the subject matter

they're dealing with as well as the manner in which they present it. ronald reagan -- my favorite story about ronald reagan was when he was in a deep recession, they decided they had to do something. they sent him up to south boston, a very democratic district. they sent him into a pub. the press didn't get to go in. they were all waiting to see how he was going to get his head handed to him by all of these out-of-work southies. about 15 minutes later, reagan emerges from the pub with a stein of beer in his hand in his raincoat cheered by all of these guys because they liked him. because they felt comfortable around him. >> like. like. >> and they could talk to him. i want to bring something very quickly up about the gun thing that you've got to keep in mind. that's a macro read of the country where they are on gun control. you can't look at gun control without looking at it state by state. you've got to look at what's going on in the west, in oklahoma, in new mexico and arizona and montana and north and south dakota. the gun states. they feel very strongly, and they've got democratic senators who are going to be up for election, some of them next time

around. they feel very strongly. they don't want any of these controls. so it's not the whole country sliding in one direction and therefore we're going to have a lot of gun control. i do think that they've got a shot at background checks. but after that, joe, it's going to get really tough. >> well, that's the key, though, tom. universal background checks and tough gun trafficking laws. that's something that's going to take care of, i think, chicago more so than newtown. and if you look at people that, yes, i think there are a lot of people that support aggressive gun control that would love to have an assault weapon ban, but that's more like a trophy in the case. that's not going to happen. the high-capacity magazines, that's sort of middle ground, maybe that happens in a year or two, but that doesn't happen now. but whether you're from montana or mississippi, you're going to have some republicans that are going to say, why can't we have background checks to make sure felons don't get guns? i think those two issues,

background checks and the tough new gun-trafficking laws, are the issues that would do the most to curb gun violence. >> i'm not sure that i agree with you. the reason i say that is that we've already got 2 million assault weapons out there. we've got an untold number of illegal handguns that are already in circulation. you're talking about getting a new gun, buying a new purchase of a gun. there's an enormous inventory of gun as cross the country. the larger issue has to be not just about background checks and about magazines and about assault weapons. it's about making violence unacceptable in a civil society, having the discussion across the board. and i think that that will make a big difference. and that's the discussion that has to continue. we're looking at the individual elements of it. we've got to get beyond that. >> but i can tell you this, though. if you're looking at chicago especially, and yeah, there are a lot of assault weapons out there. i made it very clear i don't see why there's a need for assault weapons or however you want to define it which, of course, the gun people get you coming and going. if you call them assault

weapons, they've been banned since 1933. yes, they have. then if you say semiautomatic weapons, oh, you're coming after my pistol. so whatever they want to call it, there are a lot of cops on the street. there are a lot of gun-control advocates who do believe universal background check combined with a chuck trafficking ltraffiough trafficking law that stops you from selling a gun out of your trunk. >> daley has been saying for years in chicago if the atf came into chicago and went to the inner city and busted the drug lords on taxes, they could shut down a lot of what's going on. >> that's what they need to do. >> that's what they need to do as well. it's about more than just an element. it's about the whole composite. and it's about the dialogue continuing beyond that. >> all right. >> final question for chuck, mika? >> i was just going to say, it seems like it would be impossible to come up with any legislation that addresses what you're talking about and so people give up before you even start. it would be impossible. i mean, to deal with all the

guns that are out there in a serious way. it's impossible. >> you know, though, the thing is, though, chuck todd, you could ask a question about whether americans supported toughen forcement of l enforcem are already on the books and have nra members that say amen. >> how about fully funding atf? how about getting a permanent head of the atf and not politicizing it, forcing this idea of senate confirmation which, by the way, was a poison pill that the nra wrote in order to prevent there ever being a permanent director of atf. >> chuck, can we explain -- and we've got to go. i know we've got to go. >> i know. >> this is so important for people to understand. i ran for the first time in 1994. it was in the shadow of ruby ridge and waco, two events where the feds, the atf, went way overboard, especially at ruby ridge. it was frightening how they abused their power and actually killed a family. >> right. >> we are still living in the shadow of ruby ridge.

something that i would guess 98% of the people that are watching this show don't even know what ruby ridge is. >> it is. >> ruby ridge and waco has shaped not only how we view the atf. it has shaped the way the nra has looked at the gun battle. and we need to move past 1993. we need to make sure that the feds are responsible. chuck, go ahead, i'm sorry. >> no, very quickly. and so what happened in that response to that and the nra got the senate essentially got congress to weaken atf in this respect. they've made the director at atf a senate confirmation position. it used to be an appointed position. they made it senate confirmed. they've never confirmed one. and by never confirming one, what does that mean? you have an acting director. when you have an acting director, you don't really have anybody in charge. you know this. in any organization. >> yeah. >> and in changing that would get a little bit at what tom's talking about. because half of this issue is enforcement. >> right.

>> yep. >> all right, chuck todd, thank you so much. we'll see you at 9:00 on "the daily rundown." tom brokaw, stay with us if you can. coming up, a new book reveals how the food industry uses salt, sugar and fats to hook kids at a young age and why we're becoming a nation of food addicts. author michael moss joins us. "morning joe" will be right back. [ dad ] find it? ya. alright, another one just like that. right in the old bucket. good toss! see that's much better! that was good. you had your shoulder pointed, you kept your eyes on your target. let's do it again -- watch me. just like that one... [ male announcer ] the durability of the volkswagen passat. pass down something he will be grateful for. good arm. that's the power of german engineering. ♪ back to you.

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if the sequester is going to happen, coming up, what should the president decide? >> he has a plan. >> he has a plan. democratic senator pat toomey joins us next. i felt it meant that they could say that we were satisfied with that type of treatment, and i didn't want to be known human beings were satisfied with being treated in such a manner. [ tylenol bottle ] nyquil what are you doing?

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46 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." here with us now from capitol hill, republican senator from pennsylvania, senator pat toomey. senator, good to have you on the show this morning. >> good morning, mika. good morning, guys. >> pat toomey, how are you doing? >> great. how are you, joe? >> are you behaving? >> are you sure? >> yeah, i think i'm doing fine. >> are you really? >> are you sure? >> yeah. happy to be here. >> is there anything you want to tell us, pat? >> yeah. >> yeah. i want to talk about this sequester. >> okay. >> joe, say what you just said off the air. >> no, i'm just joking. pat, enough for the weirdness. i like pat a lot. >> i do, too. >> big club for growth guy. >> yes, congratulations on your award. >> thank you. >> so you think the president should come up with the ideas of what to cut? >> yeah. here's the thing.

we actually need to cut spending. and if we get -- begin to get spending under control in washington, it's actually going to be very constructive for the economy. this sequester cuts a little over 1% of government spending. and this is a government that's grown by 100% since 2000. and in fact, if the sequester happens, in 2013 the federal government will still spend more money than it did in 2012. so here's the thing. the problem is they're not designed very well. >> yeah. >> and it's true that they're across the board in ways that could be disruptive. so senator jim inhofe and i have a bill that simply say we're going to do the cuts, but we'll let the president find the least disruptive ways, the most sensible ways to make these cuts so we can go after the waste and duplication rather than laying off air traffic controllers. >> right. >> so i think there's a more sensible way, and that's what we're going to offer. >> tom brokaw, jump in because my understanding is the president does have some cuts on the table. so maybe this could work. if the republicans would actually be okay with that.

>> senator, let me take it to the next level. what would happen if the president said to you and other key members of the senate as well as the speaker in the house and other members of his leadership team, i'd like you all to come to camp david this weekend, and let's just stay there until we can get this worked out. let's put it on hold. let's show the american people that we can get together. i mean, camp david has been used to make peace between egypt and israel, for example. it's been used to get rabin to shake hands with yasir arafat. why could it not be used with america looking to washington with the sense that anything can get done? >> i'd go to camp david or anywhere else the president wants to meet. i'd be happy to. i spent a lot of time trying to get a solution when i was on the super committee, and i'm trying to make progress now. what i wouldn't agree to is kicking this can down the road yet aagain with the promise that we'll get some agreement. so instead, i think these really very modest cuts in terms of the scale of this government, the

size of these cuts are very small. let them begin. let's give the president the discretion to do it in a way that minimizes disruption. and by the way, we haven't begun to solve the problems here. we'll still need to go to camp david or somewhere to work our entitlement programs and other challenges that we have. >> you've mentioned disruptions twice. what are the disruptions you're worried about for your constituents if the cuts take effect as currently constituted? >> i'm not sure. it's hard to say. but we have the transportation secretary, for instance, ray lahood, a good guy, a republican. i know him well. he's concerned that we'll have delays at airports and we'll have air traffic controllers on furlough and those sorts of things. those are disruptive to travel, disruptive to the economy. we don't have to do that. we can give the president the discretion to go after maybe a little consolidation in the 80 different economic development programs, the 47 different job training programs the federal government runs, the 94

different green building programs, again, across who knows how many agencies. a little common sense and consolidation there would allow us to avoid more difficult and painful cuts. so i think we just do this in a more sensible fashion. >> senator, the white house would tell you that they do have a plan on the table. it involves closing loopholes and i think about $900 billion in cuts, chained cpi as well as medicare. why not take that plan since there is one? do you guys have one? >> let him answer the first question you asked. >> first of all, house republicans have passed a number of plans. i am offering a plan right now. i'm not interested in raising taxes yet again. you know, obamacare is loaded with all kinds of tax increases. at the end of the year, just eight weeks ago, the president got a huge tax increase. and now the president wants to raise taxes again to pay for more spending. i think we need a little less spending. and so we've got this law in place. it's about to go into effect. we can do it in a more sensible fashion, and i'm in favor of that, and i'm willing to give

the president the discretion in exactly how that gets >> where's the least important spending? where's the duplication? let's cut back a little bit there. this is very manageable if the president wants to have this flexibility. >> so, i'm curious, aside from this debate, the sequester debate and the deadline on friday, are you in favor of closing loopholes, just in terms of a concept? >> i'm very much in favor of closing loopholes, and i want to take the revenue that we generate that way and use it to lower marginal tax rates so we'll have a stronger economy. we don't need to be raising taxes, we do need to reform the code. we ought to do that in a revenue-neutral fashion. and let the tremendous economic growth that that would unleash, let that happen. that will generate a lot of revenue, by the way, for the federal government. >> all right. senator pat toomey, thank you so much! thanks for going to camp david.

>> happy to go. >> he's happy to go, tom brokaw. that's one. 99 more and we'll be in good shape. tomorrow, we'll have "mad money's" jim cramer, he's never invited anywhere, and also melanie barnes, and john thune. so powerful, mika, he can brace a chair with a single hand. he's watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.

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i think we have a few warts and pimples that need to be popped. and i believe this is one of them. >> not exactly the metaphor you may have been looking for. auditors last year found the state -- hello, nice to see you. auditors last year found the state -- >> i love it is! that was well-handled, wasn't it? ever happen to you? >> no, but if i can take a moment, we lost overnight, somebody you never see on television, someone who has been extraordinarily important to this company for a long time. his name is derek wilkinson, he lived in london. a true limey, a lot of gold chains and cologne and hair, and he could edit under the worst conditions and at the end of the day say to me, hello, darling, are you doing okay. and we lost him overnight.

it's one of those people you never see, but was critically important to the success we had in wars and revolutions and the release of mandela. wherever big news was breaking at around the world, i would be comforted by derek and his white slippers coming through the, ready to et did. amazing guy. and he played the horses a lot and he always believed he was going to win the lottery. he won the lottery with his wife, but that came to an end last night, unfortunately. >> oh, tom brokaw, thank you so much. new polling suggests that the republican party is facing an uphill battle with the american public. but the problem, is it the message or the messenger? "morning joe" back in a moment.

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast as you take a live look at new york city. wake up, wake up, wake up. >> stay in bed. >> if you're in new york, you're probably still in bed. it's so gross out. back with us on set -- >> probably not in bed. >> true, probably just going to bed. we have john heilemann and mark halperin and in washington, d.c., jon meacham. >> let's move to politics now. some nbc news/"wall street journal" polls that have come out. and of course, for those that followed polls and actually cared about results, it was probably the most accurate or one of the most accurate polls. there's some conservatives overnight in the twittersphere and online that have been pushing back against the results of this, because they didn't report them as well as gallup

did. but the numbers are pretty daunting for my republican party. they've got a long way to go. >> when asked about their feelings about the gop, just 29% of people had a positive view. 46% were negative. a difference of 17% percentage points. by comparison, democrats enjoyed a net positive outlook, 41% positive over 36% negative. when it comes to handling key issues, including entitlements, gun control, even taxes and the economy, democrats were seen as doing a better job. the only issue where the gop holds the advantage in the survey were on reducing the deficit, controlling government spendi inin ining and defense. still, president obama has seen public support suffer. his disapproval has risen four points since november and the number of people who think the country is headed in the wrong direction has increased to 59%. all the rancor over budget negotiations hasn't helped. 51% say they are less confident about the economy.

just 16% say budget wrangling has made them more confident. just talking to some people just out of college last night. they just don't want to hear the word "sequester" again. and still to this point, they don't really know what it means. because they don't think it's going to mean anything, so they don't think it's worth even in their mind trying to figure it out. i don't like that attitude. having said that, i don't necessarily -- well, i kind of sympathize with it. >> yeah. as far as the poll goes, the president is not suffering. least looking very strong. and look at the specifics item over item, improving the lives of middle class voters, it is the president and the democrats who are winning on just about every front. the republicans' brand right now still in the tank, in the 20s. only time will tell if they can

turn things around, but right now it's not looking good. mark, what are your overall impressions of the new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll? >> republicans are united in washington and around the country in not wanting to do countries. but besides that, they're divided. divided about a pr strategy for dealing with sequester. divided about immigration. divided to some extent about the general posture toward the president. and you say, who's the republican party unpopular with? they're unpopular to some extent with democrats, but the reason the number's down so low, a lot of republicans are unhappy with the party. some from the right and some from the left. and i think right now the president and his team are firing on all cylinders on the pr war leading up the to the sequester and republicans have put themselves in a weak and bad position. reflected in that poll as a short-term problem, but a lot of long-term issues as well. >> when your brand is in the 20s, you're in harry truman and george w. bush territory, it's just not good.

and you know, the president is winning the day on a lot of issues, especially when it comes to dealing with gun violence. when you look at the poll, overwhelmingly, americans think that this country needs stricter gun laws, that's obviously an offshoot of not only newtown, but mass shootings over the past several years. 61% say they want gun laws to be tight tnd. 61%. only 4% want less strict gun laws. and 34% want them kept as they are right now. democrats are also seeing overwhelmingly, it's the party that can handle the issue of gun violence. and a poll reveals that despite controversial comments in a major ad and the heavy media scrutiny in the wake of newtown, mika, the nra's public opinion is unchanged. it went down and it's come back up. 42% of the people have a positive view. 34% have a negative view.

so, really, willie geist, there's something there for everybody. >> there has. and it goes to something we've been saying for a long time. that wayne lapierre is not only out of touch with the mainstream, but out of touch with his own membership, when he says that nobody wants universal background checks and you look at the numbers and something like 90% of americans want them. there is a desire for some measures, not extreme, not to go in and take the guns away, but there is a desire in this country and it's not just from m democrats or from liberals, but from americans, as we saw there, to go something about guns. >> the numbers have shifted dramatically, john heilemann, like they haven't shifted in recent history. and last night, there was a special election. it was in a democratic seat to replace jesse jackson. a lot of people are scoffing about conservatives immediately, because michael bloomberg went in. there was a candidate that was in a competitive race, who was supported by the nra. bloomberg came in, and it

changed everything overnight. >> he did. and he spent, i believe, $2 million on that race, in a media market like chicago and a race at this level, $2 million is a lot of money. it's a lot of money anywhere, but coming in at the last minute and flood -- saturate the air waves with advertising in support of her. and look, we talked about this a couple days before on the program, the mayor is a dangerous man in american politics right now for people who want to fight this battle. >> yeah, whatever you want to spend on trying to advocate for guns, he will triple, double, quadruple, he will spend more. >> he has a limitless bank account and a lot of really smart political advisers around him and he wants to have an impact and he cares about this. he's ready to fight and he's ready to play. >> he's got time, money, and focus 7.

and jon meacham, that's dangerous. who is it going to affect? the 40 or so democratic house members who have reflexively voted the way the nra has ordered them to vote. and you have, of course, a democratic senate candidates in 2014 in red states that have reflexively voted the way the nra has wanted them to vote. all that changes now with michael bloomberg's money. >> i think money is the theme of the morning, i think. because you have the bloomberg victory in illinois. you also have governor christie, taking the medicaid expansion, which is part of obama care. which a lot of republican governors around the country have been struggling with. they want the money, but they have legislatures that have run against obama care in all its forms. and you wonder whether the christie decision and the shifting guns represents, at least an opening for a kind of eisenhower republicanism.

>> well, let's talk about that in, obviously, a reversal that could have implications on a future presidential bid. new jersey governor chris christie announced that his state will accept federal money from obama care. governor chris christie becomes the eighth republican governor to opt into the medicaid expansion, joining notables such as new mexico's susanna martinez, michigan's rick snyder, and rick scott of florida. >> and also john kasich. i mean, the guy is in a really, really good conservative company there. >> christie emphasized that he was making the decision despite his personal ideology. >> i am no fan of the affordable care act. i think it's wrong for new jersey and i think it's wrong for america. i thought against it and i believe in the long run it will not achieve what it promises. however, it is now the law of the land. and i will make all my judgments as governor, based on what i believe is best for new jersey.

>> that last-minute invitation that was coming from cpac, they're burning it now. they are. >> are they really, i wonder? what about rick scott? >> among the republican governors who still oppose adopting obama care are bobby jindal of louisiana, scott walker of wisconsin, and rick perry of texas. meanwhile, one of the organizers of cpac is explaining why governor christie was not invited to speak at this year's meeting. al cardniss spoke to christie's attack about delaying a vote on sandy relief, saying in part, "he made it very hard for republicans in the congress at a time when we were trying to deal with fiscal restraint. we were disappointed with his take on the disaster relief bill. we're hoping that next year he'll give us a reason to invite him again." we >> well, al cardenas is a friend of mine, and it's his party.

it's cpac's party. and i like al and i like a lot of people at cpac. you know, yesterday we said, i went on and on about why people didn't like chris christie. and of course, i've been talking about glenn beck versus chris christie, and of course, conservative websites immediately put up headlines that said, scarborough said cpac driven by hate and whatever. no. it's the people who are now trying to drive a guy with a 74% approval rating and one of the most conservative records in recent history out of an organization that's supposed to attract conservatives. those people -- no, al -- listen, by the way, i think al's statement there is legitimate. if you don't want him there for that reason, that's fine, because there are a lot of house republicans that believe that he sideswiped them when they needed his support. that's fine. if peter king would have done the same thing, with i would

have done the same thing as anybody's whose homes were ravaged by hurricanes in their district. so that's legitimate. but my point is a much bigger point that has nothing to do with cpac or even al cardenas. it's that chris christie is being secluded from a party with approval ratings in the 20s! and he's sitting, willie, with a 74% approval rating in the bluest of blue states and he's doing it by breathing fire against public unions, by breathing fire against liberals, by breathing fire against big spenders. he's balancing the budget, spending is down in real dollars. he's pro-life. he should be the conservative party's dream. and therein lies our problem. that is -- i mean, i think this is a turning point in the republican party, to show why we have a brand that puts us in the 20s. >> you just laid it out. it's not about policy. i mean, he cuts taxes, he's

pro-life. he's taken on the unions. he's done everything conservatives would ask a governor to do. this is about hurt femaelings. this is about him saying nice about a president who helped him get through a difficult time in his state. it's about him calling out speaker boehner in the middle of the relief bill. it's about them feel like he doesn't fall in line with where they want to be. well, that's not a great lain to be in right now. he's staking out his own ground and they don't like it. >> chris christie has a 74% approval rating in new jersey, and i thought it was so funny. somebody last night said, you know, chris christie doesn't have a future in the republican party and i started laughing. no, this republican party, this part of the republican party that's lost five out of six presidential elections, this part of the republican party doesn't have a future in the republican party. chris christie's future, pretty damn bright. >> when this story broke and we heard that he wasn't invited to cpac, we joked that it might have been about the hurricane

sandy issue. we thought that would be unbelievably ridiculous. and here we are. so, anyhow, last night, "washington post" columnist charles krauthammer gave his take on christie's cpac snub. >> what is he saying? >> i think this is a vast overreaction, it's a mistake. he's a leading republican, a presidential timbre, the highest approval rating of any governor and he's in a blue state. i wasn't happy with what he did with sandy. i thought he deserved three months in quarantine, the three months is up, i would have him at cpac, we should have a white tent, and if that's what it takes to win elections in the northeast and nationwide, let's go for it. >> can i just say, i'll say it again, i love charles krauthammer. he's my favorite columnist. the guy is great. he is conservative, he's tough. i don't agree with him on every single point, but the man understands, mika, at the end of

the day -- >> yeah? >> -- it's about winning. you move the conservative agenda forward by winning, not by yelling at yourself and stirring up resentment. it's about winning, if you want to change the country. coming up on "morning joe," author michael moss will join us with his new book, "salt, sugar, fat." he says the food industry is using those three ingredients to create a nation of addicts. >> i'm hungry. >> willie, are you hungry? >> salt, sugar, and fat, yum! >> i am so thankful for this front page story on "new york times" magazine. >> i'm wondering, do you guys ever put brown sugar on top of the bacon? >> oh, yaeah. >> uh-huh. >> guys, this is the core of our national epidemic of obesity. also joining him, expert on obesity, yale's dr. david katz. and up next, he calls the sequester stupid and says it could cost taxpayers more than it saves. we'll ask former governor and

now senator mark warner about what he thinks about washington's latest crisis. you won't be laughing a few weeks from now when you're still working out and nothing's happening. but first, here's bill karins with a check on forecast. bill? >> good morning, everyone. today in new england is not easy, especially if you're talking about driving anywhere in southern new england, in the heavy rain. folks going up into northern new england are driving into snow. we have some airport delays also. as far as the worst of it, new york city, still raining out and a little bit drizzly, but the heavy rain has shifted northwards. also snow back through central pennsylvania and many areas out there deal with those nasty storms that we're going with. at least it's not a full winter storm, as temperatures continue to be a little bit warm. jfk, was an hour and a half delays, now at one hour. even baltimore is at one and a half hour delays. there's been a lot of fog down there around the baltimore, maryland area. so there's the forecast. at least it's going to be pretty mild. we don't have to worry about the roads coming home in many areas. the other portion of the country is dealing with a huge storm

from milwaukee to chicago. you're getting nailed with a little bit of snow last night. a lot of people driving on slippery roads. here's a shot of the milwaukee area. looks like they're cleaning things up after 4 inches of snow last that's night. that's going to linger throughout the day today. kind of an ugly day, you get the picture, new england through the great lakes. for our friends everywhere else in the country, it's looking pretty nice through the southeast through the west coast. enjoy your day. you're watching "morning joe," everyone. we're brewed by starbucks. [ dad ] find it?

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we have moved a bill in the house twice. we should not have to move a third will before the senate gets off their ass and begins to do something. >> i think he should understand who is sitting on their posterior. we're doing our best here to pass something. the speaker is doing nothing to try to pass anything over there. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 21 past the hour. joining us now from capitol hill, democratic senator from virginia, senator mark warner. we also have donny deutsch, mark halperin, john heilemann, all back at the table. >> all right, governor, let me ask you this, if you went 1,400 days without putting a budget

out as governor of the state of virginia, would you not sort of not be in the position to complain about the other side not doing -- today is the 1400th day since democrats have actually passed a budget and -- >> you know, at the end of the day, i think people are tried blaming who -- >> no, no, no, hold on a second. with all due respect, 1,400 days since you guys have passed a budget. we're friends, but you can at least admit that the democratic senate and harry reid is in no position to point fingers at people for inaction, right? >> we ought to pass a budget and we're going to pass a budget this year. but let's also lack at the fact that there's not a single plan out there. i've been involved in every one of these bipartisan plans that hasn't said, you need about, on the minimum, about $1.2 trillion if you're going to do a new revenue, if you're going to do a

$4 trillion deficit reduction plan. i'm all for believing we have boot got to do more entitlement reform, but we have to do more revenues as well. and opposed to going through all of these stupid cuts, not only have we heard about 750,000 lost jobs, but in certain cases, we'll cost the taxpayers money. when we buy ten tanks, we get a volume discount. we'll break those contracts. when you do four years of cancer research, and don't get the first three years, you'll flush that. that's less meat and eggs going to the grocery store, driving up grocery prices. this was set up to be the stupidest of all options. whoever dreamed it up, who knows at this point, but at this point, let's avoid it. we have a plan tomorrow, half cuts, half revenues, but if we can't get that through, let's go ahead and give the president some discretion, so we can mix in some priorities. >> we don't want to split hairs

here, but the president came up with the plan, and finally admitted it this week. >> senator mitch mcconnell wrote this about the sequester, senator. "the president's been going around warnings of utter chaos if the sequester takes effect. and while i agree that those cuts could be made in a smarter way, and don't like the fact that they fall disproportionately on defense, what does it say about the size of government that we can't cut it by 2%, 3% without inviting disaster?" doesn't that make our point? >> i think we can cut it more than that if you actually try to do it in a rational way, not over seven months of a fiscal year, where you have no ability to choose, i go back to those 975 separate programs in the navy. they're not all of equal value to the taxpayer or of equal value to the defense of the country. anybody that's been a governor, anybody that's run a business, there's a smart way and stupid way to cut back. this is the most stupid of all

ways. all i'm saying, we ought to do targeted cuts and ought to do revenues and we ought to put entitlements on table as well. >> good for you and you have. >> okay, mark halperin, the fact that it's not done says what about who? >> that there's no deal. that once the grand bargain fell apart, there's no way to get these things done easily. the logic was, put in things the that both sides like, that it would pass. that these individual deals can't move. and the tax issue right now is huge. i don't think the president would do a deal to replace the sequester that didn't have revenue. and i can't see a revenue deal passing the house that doesn't have major entitlement reform and major tax reform, which is nowhere near being ready to be voted on. >> so donny deutsch, if you and i are debating in the next election, and i, a senator that voted for sequester and you're running against me, and you say, you slashed this and you slashed -- let's say in ross perot style, look at this chart.

i'm going to show you a chart, this is a chart that john barrasso and mitch mcconnell put out. the top line is what happens without the sequester, the bottom line is what happens with the sequester, and it is, jeffrey sykes, professor of economics at columbia helpfully explained the other day, the line after the sequester cuts is actually below what barack obama said we were going to be doing, as far as cuts go, in 2009! >> thank you, professor erwin cory. >> but look at this, though, seriously. so your hair is going to be on fire and you're going to be able to carry the day saying, i just slashed spending? >> no. i want to throw that back to the senator of virginia. when you say that entitlements are on the table, specifically, you're the entitlement cut guy. go. >> let's first of all go back to that chart. the reason those lines are so close is that 65% of the budget is not being touched by these

entitlements. because that means military pay and personnel, that means social security, that means medicare, that means medicaid, that means agricultural subsidies. i go back to simpson bowles gang of six. we laid out a plan that cut $4 trillion out of our debt. we got the shots from the left and the right. but when you look at the domestic discretionary or the military discretionary lines, those cuts are actually about 8 to 10%. >> but i want to go to the meat and potatoes. just talk to me specifically, because republicans need to hear democrats saying that. once again, you're in charge of it. you've got the paper in front of you. give me the entitlement cuts. >> let we start with chain cpi, a more rational way to measure inflation. let's look at raising the cap on social security. let's look at a phased in, raising the age of social security. let's look at means testing, medicare. let's look at combining the various medicaid programs into a single deductible, so everybody's got at least a little bit of skin in the game, in terms of the services they

use. let's look at things like graduate medical education, where we've got to make sure we train enough doctors, but there are some excesses in that category. we've got a list of about 12 separate line items that actually add up to hundreds of billions of dollars, that democrats and republicans have agreed on. we also want to acknowledge as we go into the entitlement debate, because health care costs are actually rising at a slower rate than they were projected to raise in 2010, we've actually made some progress, whether that's the recession or whether that's the beginning of the affordable care act kicking in, there are some bright spots here that never get mentioned in the debate. but there's a whole host of very specific items that i would be in fair of. >> john heilemann? >> senator, i keep thinking that this is a -- that we're looking at this thing in isolation. the problem is, every one of these crisis we look at in isolation, we think about the fiscal cliff crisis, this crisis. we have a couple other things that are coming up. we'll have to vote on a continuing resolution to try to keep the government open, in a

month or so, there's another debt ceiling vote coming up. stepping away from this deadline on friday, do we, over the course of the next -- as the succession of self-imposed crisis come down on us, do we have the wherewithal and the time to get back to what mark talked about, to get back to a grand bargain? is this chaos going to lead towards that, or is this chaos going to make it harder and more unlikely to get the big deal done over the course of the next two or three months? >> remember with the macroeconomics, there's more private capital sitting on the sidelines now than ever before. the single biggest thing, holding back that capital and holding back reinvesting in america is us in washington, getting our act together, and doing that grand bargain. we need to do only another $2 billion over the next ten years. if we can't get that done, shame on all of us. it's going to mean revenue and entitlement reforms and yes it's going to mean some of those cuts, but done in a targeted smart way, where you can actually plan for them, rather than having them lump into a

seven-month time frame. >> all right, thank you so much, senator! >> senator mark warner, thank you! >> thanks for having you here? >> you can't judge him, but he does have the courage to step forward and talk about entitlements. >> that's true! >> we thank you for that. >> he has courage! coming up, a new lawsuit accuses the world's top beermaker of watering down their brew. cnbc's brian shactman joins us now. >> talk about a scandal. >> keep it here on "morning joe." [ female announcer ] when a woman wears a pad she can't always move the way she wants. now you can. with stayfree ultra thins. flexible layers move with your body while thermocontrol wicks moisture away. keep moving. stayfree.

they water down the sweet tea when you go to your favorite rib joint. >> hate that! >> they're water everything down now! >> maker's mark. >> like teenagers. >> yeah, sweet tea, maker's mark watered down. >> and meatballs. >> how many calories in a big glass of sweet tea? >> i don't know, but i drink about five of them a day. >> how many calories in a big horse meatball. >> not enough! >> full disclosure, i represented ikea for years, and

i ate many of those meatballs and they were very tasty. i certainly did not know they were horse meat. >> did you just say lynden berry item. >> they served them with lindenberries. >> when i came up north, i started drinking sweet tea. it's like going -- it's going like nationwide now. >> sweet tea? >> it's unvogue. >> what is sweet tea? >> it's like iced tea with pixie sticks poured into it. >> you don't know what sweet tea is? they sell it at mcdonald's. >> what kind of cultural literacy is this guy -- sweet tea, really? >> i knew it's very sweet iced tea. >> he's never been south of the mason-dixon line. >> have you ever changed planes in atlanta? >> have you ever been to chick-fil-a? >> love chick-fil-a.

>> do you know what crystal is? do you know what waterburger is? >> crystal? what's crystal? >> i know waterburger. >> you know what a meat and two is? >> ew. >> you don't want to know -- >> cheesy grits. >> we're going to stop right there. >> ribs and sweet tea, that's all i eat. >> you better go shopping today. >> anyway, brian shactman's here. >> i don't want to interrupt this. have you had a hot brown in kentucky? a lot of good food. maker's mark reversed their decision, by the way, on alcohol, and there's no indication of any horse meat in the u.s. ikea meatballs. >> thank god! >> so they say. >> so you're telling me i'm going to have to go to europe if i want horse meat? so let us finally lower the flag on american supremacy. market down, 8:36, east coast time. >> there's a class action lawsuit in california and a few states are expected to follow

against ab imbev, the maker of becau budweiser, claiming they're watering down their beer, and basically saying it's an institutional decision, that they're aware they're deceiving customers. they say that they have anecdotes from employees, but they don't have scientific info. they're looking for at least $5 million. and amb imbev just reported their earrings, actually, and for the first time since 2008, they reported increased volume. this could be a really bad story for their trademark. >> so who did we sell -- what country took over budweiser? >> brazil, isn't it? >> no, i think it's based in belgium now. >> damn belgiumese. >> belgiumites. >> the belch make good beers. >> they make really good beers and they water down ours. it's a conspiracy.

>> brian shactman, do you know what flunkin is. >> that's what you did in high school? you were flunkin? >> oh, my god! coming up next, mika's favorite segment. i'm going to go get me a cinnabon. >> coming up next, "sat, sugar, fat." author michael moss is here to explain how the food industry used those three ingredients to turn americans into food addicts. "morning joe" will be right back. but we can still help you see your big picture. with the fidelity guided portfolio summary, you choose which accounts to track and use fidelity's analytics to spot trends,

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♪ lord have pity on me can you believe we got this song? mika has the no idea who it is. who's the musical director, anyway? >> it's joe scarborough. >> "junk food junkie." >> classic. >> they'll find me -- how does it end? i'm afraid one day they'll find me with a handful of pringle potato chips and a big mac in my hand. >> nice to see you eating blueberries. >> you took away my cinnabon. >> joining us now, investigative reporter for "the new york times," michael moss. he's out now with a new book, "salt, sugar, fat," how the food giants hooked us. and michael's findings from the book were featured in the cover story of last sunday's "new york times" magazine. >> mika, actually, when you were writing your book, "obsessed," that's coming out in a couple of months, the part you were worried about -- >> was this. >> was this. you thought, people are going to

think i'm this crazy freak. but there's science to this, that they spend millions and millions of dollars figuring out how to hook people. >> and i have to tell you, people who are reading the book are getting craving for my favorite, potato chips, because when you understand how you get inside the head of these food scientists as they're engineering these foods, it's totally absorbing and you can sort of feel the allure that they're pumping into -- >> explain potato chips. take us through the science of that. >> so potato chips happens to be the single food that's contributing most to obesity in in country. >> really? >> for three reasons. salt, right, which get the blast on your tongue instantly, goes to your brain, says eat more. fat, they're loaded with fat, absorbed, right, which is even more powerful than sugar in some sense, it kind of sneaks up on the brain, twice the calories, encourages you to eat more. but the real trick with potato chips is they're loaded with sugar. not added, but the starch in the

potato chip converts to sugar starting the second it hits your tongue. so you're getting the three pillars, the holy grail of the processed food industry, all in that one gorgeous product. >> and it's why you can't just eat one. >> so you're saying something happens neurologically? >> absolutely, yes. in huge quantities, those three ingredients follow the same neurological pathways to your brain as narcotics. >> so i was going to say that when, ultimately, people end up becoming obese because of these foods, that there is a stigma out there, there is a criticism out there that they are not disciplined. and what you are saying, if you use the word "addiction," it kind of debunks that entire theory, that i think has hurt many people in this country. >> the food industry hates the word "addiction" more than anything. they love cravability and alawyallur

allure, but we know that they have been driving for decades to hit the perfect levels of each of these three ingredients, to the point where if they get it right, they know that they'll send us over the moon, the products fly off the shelves, we'll buy more, we'll eat more. they'll make more money. >> you ever find the smoking gun in there, the document that says something along the lines of, we're moving towards making this more addictive? >> there actually is no single smoking gun, it's all over the place. because you have to understand, and this is important, these are companies, and they're made to make money. and they're also under huge pressure from wall street. so some of my favorite chapters in the book are about companies who have actually tried to do the right thing by consumer health, improving the health profile of their products, and they get hammered -- >> how did that work? >> well, if they did it unilaterally -- well, because if they try to do it unilaterally, wall street steps up, and says, hey, guys, what about these profit margins here?

let's go back to more salt, sugar, fat. >> but isn't it discipline? what do you say about the person, and i know some, who i write about, who eats an entire bag of potato chips. is that the company's fault? >> the best experts on food addiction will tell you that for some people, many people, these highly loaded, especially sugar and fat products, are every bit as addictive as some narcotics. and their advice to those people is to stay away. >> literally, stay away. you can't have them. >> yes. >> speaking of narcotics, i'm thinking back earlier in my career, working for a very large soda company, and in all of their briefs, they had a very specific thing called, when the soda hit your mouth, the moment of delight. that was the marketing -- there was a certain way to do it, to capture what they called the moment of delight. >> but what's the difference between the person who can have one or two moments of delight and the person who drinks four cans of soda. >> it's the same difference

between someone that can go to bars, socially, and drink, every night of the week, and have one or two drinks and say, okay, time to go home, and another person that can't cross that threshold. and let's face it, a lot of these companies get -- make a lot of money on those people that can't just have one, that can't just close up the bag of potato chips. >> and it's a really good point, joe. in fact, they refer to their customers not as customers but as heavy users. and those are the people they target. you know, 20% of us consume 80% of the soda. and that's where they put their marketing -- >> this is a bad thing for our society. is this a job for government in your view? public pressure? what could break the cycle of our consumer addiction and individual addiction of these foods? >> you know, i interviewed the former ceo of phillip morris, who plays a whole role in this,

because they owned kraft. >> kraft caramels are not addictive, just really good. >> he said, i am no friend of government regulation, but it may make sense to impose more regulation on the food industry, simply to give them cover from wall street. because, again, even when they're well meaning and trying to dial back on the loads of sugar, fat, and salt in their products, they can't do it without being hammered by wall street. so i was really moved by him saying that, yeah, in this case, government regulars may be the way to go. >> and can i just say, really quickly, and we want to read the statement, but for those that say that the government doesn't have any role in this, any regulation in this, i will only tell you what i say every day on this show. the two greatest drivers of long-term debt are medicare and medicaid. and if you look at people that have diabetes and you look at the way the system is set up, if you look at people who have heart problems, that have strokes, that have cancer, it

all feeds back to bad diets. >> yeah. >> there is an economic state stake in the federal government doing what it can do to get americans to eat more healthy. and we can have that debate and we need to have that debate. because it's not about morality, it's not about diet, it's about our fiscal future. >> and it's also about discriminating against people who are obese and putting them off in a category that is unfair and incorrect. and your book begins this process. you mentioned, by the way, in your book, and it came up in the article, the lunchables. how many working mothers have bought lunchables thinking you're actually buying a little balanced snack for your kids. >> i love them. my kids eat them. >> those things were so -- they were not even remotely healthy, correct? >> and kraft is trying to dial back, under pressure from consumers now to improve the health profile of the lunchables. >> so they say that they've kind of taken some action here and reduced the sodium and sugar.

>> what are they saying? >> they're saying, for the last ten years, kraft has been listening to both critics and consumers. we're proud to say we've changed the way we make and market the brands both we and our consumers love. we've made good progress on our journey reducing sodium, fat, and sugar and using ingredients with names consumers recognize. in fact, lunchables is a good example of the actions we've taken, we've reduced sodium by 26%, fat by 20%, saturated fat by 26 wkt, and calories by 14% over the last ten years. >> and the market is going to get involved, but the government drives these too. >> exactly. people are increasing caring about what we put into our bodies, and at the same time, they're under increasing pressure from wall street. so there is this -- >> so important. the book is "salt, sugar, fat: how the food giants hooked us," michael moss, thank you so much. >> and mika talks a lot about this in "obsessed," when that book comes out. i think it's coming out in may,

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